The Human Side of AI Transformation

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Brian Betkowski

Welcome, everyone, to Jabian’s Strategy That Works podcast. My name’s Brian Betkowski. We’re joined here in our studio with my friend and colleague, Rob Amberg. We’re here to talk about a topic today that’s talked about a lot, but that’s for good reason. We’re going to take a little bit different spin on it today. And that topic, of course, is AI that everyone’s talking about, and that’s a good thing. But our little spin that we’re going to take on it is talk about less about AI as a technology and more about the human and the people components of AI and the implications that it can have on change because we know that a lot of our listeners are executives and also really needing to deal with AI in their own businesses and figuring out, okay, well there’s anxiety about what do I do with it? And it’s really changed from not am I going to do something with it’s what am I going to do with it, and when am I going to do that, because someone’s going to eat my lunch if I don’t, and someone else is going to do it first, and I don’t want to be beaten to the punch.

So we know everyone’s dealing with that, but there’s a human component to change. And so that’s what we’re going to jump into today. But before we do that, and we have a great guest, before we do that, Rob, quantify this for us. Give us some numbers.

Rob Amberg

Sure, absolutely. Thanks, Brian. Interestingly, the recent Global Workforce survey came out and said that 80% of executives say that AI is going to significantly impact the skills required for the jobs that they have. So if you talk about the human element, most people talk about the technology, but they’re talking about the skills required to handle AI, which is going to be impacted. And to counter that, only 30% of those executives say that they have a plan to address the human factor. So you read all the time about 70%, 80% of companies are looking at what AI technology they’re going to implement, but less than a third of them actually have a plan to deal with the human side, who’s going to implement, and how they’re going to be impacted by it. And at the same time, the same study shows that more than 70% of the workforce reports that they are eager to embrace AI. They’re eager to learn. But what they’re looking for is really that safety net from leadership, that trust and credibility to help them bring them along.

Brian Betkowski

Yeah, the cultural aspects are so important. That’s a perfect segue. We have a great guest today. She is not only an executive in our Jabian Atlanta office, but she’s helping clients and helping us internally and helping the community deal with these types of things, not only just with AI, with lots of change. And so welcome today, Karen Dernavich. Thank you for joining us.

Karen Dernavich

Thank you for having me.

Brian Betkowski

All right, let’s jump into it.

Rob Amberg

Yeah. Awesome. Karen, thanks again for being here. When we were prepping for this, you’d said that AI really isn’t just a technology story, but it’s a people story. Can you expand on that and tell us what you mean?

Karen Dernavich

Yeah, absolutely. It really is how leaders embrace AI and drive AI adoption within their cultures that is not only going to impact, but it’s really going to signify how trust, engagement, and retention for years to come within their organization.

Rob Amberg

Awesome.

Brian Betkowski

What are you seeing out there? People are trying so many different things. Are you seeing some things that are working, not working? What are you hearing?

Karen Dernavich

Well, it’s interesting, right? The data speaks for itself. There are so many AI transformations ongoing right now, but the reality is that many of them are not successful. There’s a 95% of generative AI pilots and about 42% of all AI projects are showing zero return on investment, and only 20% to 30% of those transformations achieve their intended goals. Yet whenever you speak to a leader, what are they talking about, right? Everybody’s talking about AI. We’re going to be doing it, the team’s got to do it, we’ve got to get my team moving. So it’s not going away. And in fact, it’s moving forward at warp speed despite that track record.

So why is this a people story beyond just the transformation? As you know, any business transformation in the world that I deal with, with people strategies, we’re always thinking about that human element. Leaders today are really shepherding these multi-generational teams who have very different perspectives, very different learning styles, and really very different engagement drivers. And so the key to a leader is, how do they future-proof not only themselves but the teams that they’re leading? And we really see that looking at those different perspectives, looking at those different learning styles and engagement drivers to understand how to future-proof themselves and their teams.

Brian Betkowski

Yeah. Well, tell us a little more about that. At the highest level, what would you say are the buckets of these generations, and what are the differences that you’re seeing amongst them?

Karen Dernavich

Yeah. Generationally, we could go down a rabbit hole. There are all kinds of speakers out there right now talking about how these different generations really view work differently. They view relationships at work differently. They view their relationship to work very differently, and you need all of that within the workplace to be functioning. But a good leader needs to learn how to address and motivate all of those perspectives. So if you haven’t done the work to understand those various variations amongst the generations, you need to do it now, because with that also comes your learning styles. Within your learning styles, we all know about the early adopters, the fast followers and the laggards, but you also have to consider those that learn differently, those that learn by hearing, those that learn by seeing, those that learn by doing, and how is that reflected in a leader who can meet them where they are or just say, “Well, I’m one of these. This is how I understand it, and this is how we’re going to do it in our organization.”

You’re going to lose people. And you may say, “I need to find the person on the team who’s really anxious and eager to adopt AI, and I’m just going to cut everybody else because they’re not going to be able to keep up.” Well, then you’re losing the expertise that maybe has come along and can use their experience and wisdom to sense check the AI or to prompt and show the younger folks how to bring that creativity along and amplify it even more.

Brian Betkowski

Yeah. Well, you hit on something I think is the crux of what’s making people anxious right now, which is, is AI going to displace me? So for sure, there’s lots of talk about how it can enable me, but I think there’s a lot of anxiety around, well, if I go all in on it, isn’t it just going to replace my job? And so, how are you perhaps advising executives and leaders to deal with that in a practical way?

Karen Dernavich

Yeah. That’s a great question because how you show up as a leader really matters in this space, because that is, as we talked, I mentioned the engagement drivers, our Jabian engagement framework. We talk about the different engagement drivers that really help a person be in their flow, their optimal engagement in their work. And depending on where they fit, whether they’re about growth or relationships or well-being, autonomy, security, if they’re in security and they hear that AI is going to replace their job, and that’s how they’re engaged, they’re going to run the other way. But if you can flip that on its head and say, “No, no, no, this is about amplifying you, and I’m investing in you, and I’m investing in our culture,” we really need to be thinking as leaders, how do I personally think, do, create, and learn leveraging AI? And how can I be vulnerable with my teams to show how I’m doing that and encourage them?

Just try. We’re not looking for everybody… Not everyone is going to be a fast adopter. Not everyone is going to be the one who gets it and figures out how to automate their work tool, but how can you use it to enhance what you do? How can you use it to remove the repetitive tasks so you can focus on really where your skill set might be, thinking strategically, thinking creatively. And so what we encourage our clients to do is A, be vulnerable, and then communicate. You’ve got to build trust that learning to use AI is a journey the whole organization is going to go on. So how am I going to think? Tell stories. “Hey, this weekend I used AI to figure out which restaurant I needed to take my son to because I went to visit him in Tuscaloosa, and I wanted to really impress him with taking him to a great place,” or “I used AI to learn about this topic that I had this opinion on. And actually, as I learned about it, I realized I was totally wrong. I had the wrong perspective. I was missing things.”

So sharing your own journey and relationship with AI, and it’s got to be on a regular basis. It can’t just be one and done. It’s just like all change. Bring them along the journey.

Brian Betkowski

Yeah. Someone asked me recently, “So what do you use AI for?” And I was like, “God, what don’t I use AI for?” There’s not a thought or a thing that I try to do that I don’t first just start playing with it and start realizing, well, I know? Because pretty smart.

Rob Amberg

Absolutely. I think you hit on something really interesting about how leaders need to instill that ownership mindset around AI instead of displacement, the fear of, oh, this is going to replace me. And you can look back through history and see so many times when big leaps in technology have come about and people panicked. Industrial age machines, like simple machines that get things done that were once done by hand, there was a big pushback to that because people were afraid it was going to take their job. And then all the way through the personal computer. That was a revolutionary thing. Email, the internet.

All these times people thought, oh, it’s going to steal my job. And what it really does, it just unlocks more human potential for you to focus on those higher value things. And if you can own that rather than feel like you’re being displaced, that’s when you grow as a person, I think, and grow as an organization. And so from a leadership standpoint, I think you’re absolutely right that the best leaders are going to be the ones that can tell that story, help employees see that, so that they grow and the organization grows.

Karen Dernavich

And I think not only telling them how you’re using it, but what the expectations are within the organization and where you’re setting up the space for them to do it. So this is an investment in your teams, upskilling them, helping them to learn something new and then giving them the space and the freedom to be creative with it and celebrating those. It doesn’t have to be a win. It can be a failure. It’s the journey that they went on. It’s the willingness that they had to say, “Hey, we thought on our team we could remove X, Y, and Z, or we could learn and get really smart in this area that we thought would catapult us to the next layer. And so we each divided out this thing. And guess what? We did it and two people didn’t get it at all and one person got it. But you know what? We took the dive.”

And so creating a space to call out those journeys. And again, all of them are wins because they’re creating this mindset of curiosity. Clearly articulating, what are the risks? What are the boundaries? Hey, in our organization, we allow you to use X, Y, and Z tools. Here we remind you, do not put personal or client information or this and that. Giving the boundaries, giving the tools that are available and then giving them the space to let that creativity grow and treat it as a curiosity, helping them to think about, how do they amplify their own creativity versus just, hey, how can you do your job faster so I can replace you? Right? Because that’s the fear. That’s the unspoken word. So how do you manage those expectations up front?

Brian Betkowski

At the same time, there is also a reality that it will display some jobs. And in some cases, in some companies, it’ll make, to your point, it’ll create the space to go do more valuable things. In some cases, it will create the space to get more cost-conscious and to cut in some areas. So how are you advising leaders to balance those two things so they can be genuine and open? Because if you avoid that, as soon as you do end up cutting the first person, someone says, “See? See? They’ve been telling me that it’s not going to take anybody’s job, and it just did.” So how do you get ahead of that to make sure that you’re balancing both messages?

Karen Dernavich

Yeah, I think there’s never any promises, right? You can’t make a promise that anyone’s going to have a job anywhere. It is about saying, “Just get started on this journey.” I can tell you if you’re not started on the journey and that it’s moving at warp speed, that you will be one of the first ones to go. So there is a need to get on board, but we haven’t seen a lot of jobs replaced. We talk about the investment. I said at the beginning, the AI projects, the investments that are happening and the zero return they’re having. But Amazon went through the same thing. They invested all of that money and people were like, “Oh, this company’s not making anything,” right? Well, here we are today and they own everything. So it’s going to be the same with AI.

It just might not be as fast in terms of fully replacing a role. And so again, your goal as a leader is to help them future-proof. And so where they can be thinking about what things can be automated and how things can be moved away, they need to be thinking, how can I be creative? How can I amplify? How can I force multiply the value that I bring to the organization? How can we as a team collaborate differently to be able to show why us combined with AI creates a better result than just AI alone?

Brian Betkowski

Yeah. A CEO friend of mine was explaining this in their own company, and one of the ways that he said this was, the only way for you as an individual employee to win here is for us to win. And if we lose to our competition, you will lose. We’ll all lose. And that’s not a good thing. And so it’s not about, what about your individual job? It’s about how do we create… What was it? Rising tide raises all-

Karen Dernavich

Exactly.

Brian Betkowski

… all boats. And so how do we all win? And having that more team methodology, what are we trying to accomplish as a team and as a company and how can we do that in the most effective way, in the most efficient way is a different way of framing. But we’re human, and so we think about ourselves and that’s going to happen. There’s nothing we can do about that.

Karen Dernavich

Absolutely.

Brian Betkowski

There’s folks like you and other folks in this line of business that help us deal with that and come up with a plan.

Karen Dernavich

Yeah. And I think if we’re always keeping the focus, our reasons at work are whatever the objective is of the business. And I think that one of the other things that we’re seeing is really interesting, as you talk about planning for AI transformations, even things like operating models. How do those change as we use AI? What we’re finding with AI because of the way and its creativity of connecting seemingly divergent concepts and ideas and looking at things from the outside in a way that the human mind could think about, but maybe not as quickly and pull those pieces together, it’s causing us to have to rethink about, we’ve had people working on discrete work in silos and doing these handoffs and these ways of working, but we kind of have to blow that up a bit because now we need access.

We need clean data for the AI to work. And so we need people thinking about things differently. And in order for them to think about things differently, we have to take maybe that owner or customer journey and really connect it and make sure everybody understands the whole journey. And then how we work on those ways of working and define that op model on how it’s going to work may look very different in the future as we really roll out these AI transformations.

Rob Amberg

I wonder if we’re in a leadership skill transitory period where 10 years ago, leaderships had metrics, they had goals to hit and they had to get their teams to meet the metrics. And 10 years from now, it’ll be the same. But right now with AI coming, leadership has to pivot their role, to your point of, their job is to help you maximize your role with AI. Right? And how can we best get you upskilled and onboard and configure the correct amount of employees in AI compatibility? And so it’s almost like leadership, their job is a little more psychology and a little more team management and less maybe pure goals and metrics. So I wonder if that’s an interesting period where they’re going to have to, the most successful ones will grasp that.

Karen Dernavich

As a people strategies person, I would say it’s always been about that, right? Because even though there’s always metrics and there’s always outcomes, in order to move an organization to do something, they have to believe something to take the action that you want them to take. And so in traditional business transformation change management, one of my jobs as a consultant and advisor to my executives is, hey, guess what? Change management isn’t just comms and training. It’s about bringing your organization along for the journey, gathering that data from your engagement framework to understand what are their engagement drivers, what do they need to hear, feel, think, believe, in order to take this journey with you?

And now with AI, you can’t hide from that. So we’ve got tons of records and stories of business that have failed in the past because leaders underestimated the change component. They’re not going to be able to hide from that within AI because of the deeply personal connection that people feel or disconnection from AI. I think that that is going to elevate the need for these leaders to really think about the human element. How am I going to get these folks on board and still meet my metrics? That more than ever, AI is driving outcome-based.

It doesn’t matter how you get there. I heard a leader say, “Don’t be ashamed to say, ‘Oh, I did this piece of work, but it was done on AI.'” Own it. It shows that you’re taking that journey. No one cares how you get there. They’re wanting to get to that end outcome. Now, ethics, risks, protection, all of that, still have to bound it, but to be able to encourage people to leverage the tools at your disposal, and whether it’s a calculator, whether it’s a computer, whether it is this supercomputing that AI affords us, we have to create that culture of curiosity, playfulness, freedom in testing the boundaries and understanding what we can do. Because if we start shutting down things because somebody messed up or had a bad experience, people are people going to shut down and walk away.

Brian Betkowski

And to your point, doing things in a smart way. But I think we’re almost there, to your point of, you should use all the tools at your disposal. It’s like saying, “I didn’t use the internet because I was afraid of perhaps bad things that could happen on the internet.” Of course there’s bad things that could happen, but you use it in a smart way. You don’t go to the dark web. You don’t download your company’s information on the internet, but you use it because that’s the most effective way to do it. So I think we’re there. And I think to your point, it’s already, well, you didn’t use ChatGPT? You didn’t use a tool to help you get the best answer? That seems inefficient. And so I think we’re there. So I wanted to change this up a little bit, have fun with this. We’ve been talking about the workforce, like the current workforce and what it’s doing today.

We have a lot of listeners that have children or even grandchildren. And let’s think 10, 20, maybe even 30 years from now, the workforce. I’d love to just get all of our takes on, what is the workforce in 20 or 30 years? What are we advising or mentoring children right now to focus on? Because I can tell you, 10 years ago when everyone wanted to be a computer programmer, I’m not sure that that is the best… I’m not saying that’s totally dead, but it might not be what everyone should do. And so what are your thoughts on, where is this going? What is this going to enable for our kids and grandkids?

Karen Dernavich

Yeah, that’s a great question. I’ve mentioned to you before, I homeschooled my kids. I’m a big fan of the Socratic method. I’m a big fan of self-paced learning. Right? Kids stuck at third grade math, but they’re excelling in their writing and reading, let them go, them develop. Still push on that thing where they need to work, but lean into those strengths. In terms of careers in the future of the workforce, curiosity never goes out of style. I think that’s core to anybody. Whenever we’re looking to bring folks onto the organization, the first thing I’m looking for is, where’s their curiosity? Where’s their commitment to follow through on what they say? Where are their problem-solving abilities? I heard someone say for the next few years it’s going to be, how well can you prompt AI? The better you learn to prompt and the better questions you learn to ask…

I love, you shared with me the other day about the new Socratic method that one of the AI tools has got. Teach yourself to be more of a question asker. Those things I think are really going to transform where we go. But in terms of careers, I think it’s going to be really interesting because we have a shift in, as we talked about, the generational differences where the younger people have a very different relationship with work. They’re not doing as the boomers were like, “I work because I have to,” versus the Gen Xers who are like, “I just put on my big girl pants and I go to work every day because it’s what I got to do.” And you’ve got the next generation, the Z coming in and saying it has to be missional and it has to be very impactful to society. And then you’ve got the new generation that’s sort of like, “I’ll work when I need to, but there’s other things about life are more important.”

So how do we take where that curve is going with what people hold to value? Most of our lives are turning into a subscription model. Gone are the days of having cabinets of DVDs and VHSs. Everything is going away. So I think we’re really at this point where, when I think about my husband’s grandmother when she was 102 years old or 101 years old, and I would say, “Gosh, think of all the technology that was created in your lifetime and the change that you saw,” and she was like, “It’s incredible. Every decade there was something brand new.” And it feels like since the whole, oh no, 2000 is coming around, there really hasn’t been a big thing other than the iPhone. So I think that AI and how that’s really going to transform this next generation and where the workforce goes, I think it’s anybody’s guess. I think that curiosity, becoming a great question asker, follow through on what you say you’re going to do and learn as much as you can is where I’m telling folks, because I think there’s a lot of unknown.

Brian Betkowski

That’s well said. I’m just excited about the fact that it’s not about what knowledge you have, but it’s about what you’re going to do with it. Because everyone’s going to have a lot more knowledge than they have right now. And basically everyone has access to all the knowledge, almost. So now it’s about doing or getting creative to, how do you put stuff together and how do you actually go solve some real problems knowing that there’s very little barriers to that anymore? What are your thoughts?

Rob Amberg

Well, I think, interesting you said about the knowledge, how the access to knowledge, there is no limit on the access to knowledge that you have. And so I think there’s also no limit… Everything is real time. You need an answer? Here it is. There’s no more working to find an answer. Everything is on demand, whether it’s DVDs or whether it’s facts or whether it’s insights. And so what you do with that is really important. And I think that when we look at the younger generations now, and I look at all the things that go online, and it seems like privacy, their personal privacy is interesting, but they’re willing to put anything they want online and without fear of any repercussion because their entire generation does that. And so it’s not one person’s secret, they all do it. So interesting to see how that evolves. But it makes me wonder about what is achieved when humans have to struggle for breaking through something. And when something is on demand, does it become less impactful and less valuable?

And so I have a lot of questions about what that workforce is going to look like. But I do think when you look back at the parallels to when the internet and worldwide web first came out and people started, their careers were, “I’m going to be working with the internet,” and how that was just a crazy job at the time. And now I think this is that next evolution. And a lot of young, smart people made businesses out of the internet. They jumped in, they learned. A lot of e-commerce. Very successful with that. And so I think it’ll be very similar with AI. The folks that want to embrace it are going to jump in and find a way to monetize it and make it a way of life. And maybe that gives them a lot more time on their hands.

Brian Betkowski

Good points.

Karen Dernavich

Well, and to that point, right? Education. I think education is going to change dramatically. Who’s going to pay when you have it right there? We used to joke that when kids got iPhones, they stopped coming to their parents because, why did they need their parents’ insights on anything? Because they could find it faster and easier without an attitude here. And so that ability to turn to say, “Well, why am I going to go enroll in university if I can go learn at my own pace and learn the things I care about?” That’s a constant battle with kids. “Why didn’t you get an A on this?” “Well, I didn’t really care about that subject.”

So that ability to grow and learn at one’s own pace, I think is going to really shape where people can go and that creativity that can come out. And hopefully that’s the human element that the AI can’t replace, is that inner creativity that a human being has. And how do we still keep the human element of the, there is wisdom and experience? And how do we keep those pieces in it? Because if I don’t need to go to my mentor to ask a question because I can come here, what do we lose as a society? So how do we put some structure around that?

Rob Amberg

I think one big issue, this is a much bigger conversation for another time, but one-

Brian Betkowski

Going down a rabbit hole.

Rob Amberg

One thing that leads to is when you have a proliferation of information and information sources, one of the first things to vanish is, what do you trust is the right information? And we saw the same thing with cable news, with the amount of information you can get and you can pick and choose what information you want to get. And so when we have AI that can only… I’m only interested in math, and so all I want to study is math. I just worry that there’ll be so much information that someone’s job will be 100% fact-checking, or how do you trust what you’re seeing.

Brian Betkowski

What is even the truth? Rob, you’re open opening up a can of worms here. We better be careful. Yeah, I know. Seriously. But honestly, this has been really cool. This is a really good conversation. Before we wrap it up, anything we either didn’t talk about or any last parting words of wisdom to give our listeners some confidence that this is something that people have overcome these types of things in the past? I know this is a different kind of change, but what would you tell an executive to give them some confidence that this is a change that they can definitely handle?

Karen Dernavich

Yeah. I think it’s really about do not be afraid to be vulnerable. But this is a journey that you’re going on too. Because in order to bring folks along, you need to build that trust and credibility. And the best way you can do that is to communicate. Everything lives and dies in communication and trust is lost in buckets and earned in drops. So it’s those deposits over time that you as a leader can make to really understand your organization and bring them along the journey with you. But these are exciting times. The sky’s the limit, and if you can motivate your teams to join you on this journey, you probably have the ability to exponentially impact the trajectory of your firm.

Brian Betkowski

Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, Karen, Rob, this was fun.

Rob Amberg

Absolutely.

Brian Betkowski

Thank you. It’s amazing how quick 30 minutes goes by.

Karen Dernavich

Really.

Brian Betkowski

I enjoyed that. Hopefully we’ll be able to do this again soon.

Karen Dernavich

Great. Thanks for having me.

Rob Amberg

Thanks. You bet.